Curse

tmakinen · Jun 09, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

No. But I can say with a straight face that those people probably know more (or care more) about balance than the devs.

Knowing and/or caring more about a franchise than its producers is a hallmark of fanboyism gone overboard. It's just a game

upier · Jun 09, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Actually that IS a problem. People using inbalanced crap has ruined the gameplay for a lot of other players even if they aren't using the inbalanced crap. Just because it hasn't ruined it for you doesn't mean the problem isn't there.

Don't like Don't use = Garbage.

A.net doesn't consider it a "problem".
If you do - that makes you wrong.

So ... how did it ruin the game for YOU?

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

They don't need to cater to anyone. Try reading the last few pages again.

Yeah, it's not like they are trying to sell a product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Depends on if they make GW2 in the same fashion that GW1 currently is in.

And I wouldn't say "just because of that", because I consider overpowered-as-shit skills to be quite a problem.

So I guess A.Net can have the cake and eat it too.

DarkNecrid · Jun 09, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Opinions are only wrong in other people's opinions. Opinions cannot be wrong by definition. The Hitler comparison is not really a good one is it? And the Holocaust is a historical fact, not an opinion. Please stay reasonable here, or refrain from posting. Such exaggerated comparisons aren't helping the discussion. We're not discussing Nazism here, we're discussing a game, and people have different opinions about it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, so who are you to call someones opinion wrong? Sure, you might not agree, but that doesn't mean someone else is wrong per definition. I'm sorry, but your posts just don't contribute to this discussion in my opinion. Some might agree with my opinion, some might not, but it's NOT wrong. ^^

lol wut?

"I know you just proved me wrong but THIS ISN'T NAZISM."

Wellllll NO SHIT SHERLOCK. The hitler comparison is a good one because whether its a historical fact or not there are people who have the opinion I stated. yes! there are actually people who have the opinion that the Holocaust never happened, and deny history. Amazing how people have different opinions about it....

(p.s.: you're not a mod, don't tell me what I can or can not do.)

Of course according to you, these people who say Nazism is alright, Hitler is the best man on the planet, and the Holocaust never happened, are perfectly alright...which makes me wonder what kind of person you really could be? Or are you willing to admit opinions can be wrong, as a fact?

Quote:

Knowing and/or caring more about a franchise than its producers is a hallmark of fanboyism gone overboard. It's just a game

You know, those are some pretty epic fanboys considering I think half that list doesn't even play anymore.

Tyla · Jun 09, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Screw it, I'll just pick up an example of "Don't like it don't use it".

Me: Hey mum, I'm smoking weed now and it feels good!
Mum: What?! Stop that RIGHT now!
Me: Don't like it don't use it, it doesn't affect you!

Or even then, don't like Ursan, don't PuG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

Ermm... exactly. How did it affect you then? Because some people that used it got banned? They did a bad thing and got punished. If you didn't use it, you're fine.

Ermmm...exactly. How did it affect me then? Oh, in that case it didn't need fixing.

By the way, Ursan isn't working as intended. Slap on a Zealous weapon, and maybe a focus with the "Live for Today" inscription and find out for yourself. Even then, it's against build creation. Yes, along with Raven and Volfen.

Greedy Gus · Jun 09, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

That's an interesting mode of discussion for sure. "Since I cannot answer your question I'll answer a completely different question of my own choosing as if it was what you asked in the first place."

That's not so fair Tmak, because it was you who originally took the point out of context and interjected the developers into your challenge. The original idea was that a strong vocal minority such as forum posters can be just as important if not more so than the more casual/silent majority, as driving forces in the community (lending to free self-promotion and better critique for improvement).

This was in the context of questioning A-net's attempt to appease the casual majority at the cost of alienating the more hardcore/elite fanbase, when arguably that casual majority was drawn to simpler aspects like no monthly fee rather than specific design choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by original quote

Forum posters may be a minority, but unlike the 'uncaring' majority, they offer ANet valuable criticism and ideas for the game's improvement. This is especially true of the distinct few who have large amounts of knowledge/expertise in the game.

DarkNecrid · Jun 09, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

By the way, Ursan isn't working as intended. Slap on a Zealous weapon, and maybe a focus with the "Live for Today" inscription and find out for yourself. Even then, it's against build creation. Yes, along with Raven and Volfen.

Sorry m8, that's a bad example. Technically, that is working as intended. It says "You have -2 energy degeneration", and therefore nothing can raise/lower that. Environmental effects won't change it, etc.

Bryant Again · Jun 09, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A.net doesn't consider it a "problem".
If you do - that makes you wrong.

So ... how did it ruin the game for YOU?

They've never stated it wasn't a problem. Likewise, they never stated it was. Regarding how it "ruined the game", I think doing a complete u-turn from what makes your game unique is a pretty good way to have it lose its edge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah, it's not like they are trying to sell a product.

Which they've been doing thus fine with so far, even without dumbing down the entire game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So I guess A.Net can have the cake and eat it too.

As stated: Depends. Seeing the complete 180 that GW1 has taken in terms of design I'm going to be very wary about purchasing GW2. I don't want another free-to-play MMO sans additional content.

@Tmak: If we want to go on about what the "original context" was, then we'd probably want to go back even further:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Do I really have to name 10+ people on these forums who have basically contributed more to the community than anyone else with their expertise?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I would be impressed to see a list of names of 10+ people on these forums who have contributed more to the game than anybody else (including the devs).

DarkNecrid · Jun 09, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

oh, btw, Regina said they are discussing Ursan Blessing on her journal, and some think its a problem, and some don't, so being dumb and putting the entire team as being one universal thought is kind of lol.

Yichi · Jun 09, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

You are claiming, with a straight face, that these people have contributed to the game more than the devs of ANet combined? That the game is the way it is now mostly thanks to these people, not thanks to ANet? That without these people, there wouldn't probably even be a game?

Gosh. Looks like I've been doing alpha testing for all the wrong people.

I will say for 100% certainty that Ensign, JR, Black Mischief, as well as others that started as players and now work for anet/different game companies (not mentioning names atm) know more about this game than the origional developers, yes.

And I can guarentee from their knowledge posted/shared vs the knowledge I have personally gotten from devs/design team that I am right.

Your origional response was to a comment about posting a list of 10 or more people that have contributed to the community more than anyone else has, so I did. So therefore my list wasn't as off as you liked it to be

tmakinen · Jun 09, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If we want to go on about what the "original context" was, then we'd probably want to go back even further

You didn't go back far enough. The discussion started with perceived problems with the game, not with the community (which, admittedly, has its own problems). Even if some people might have conceptual difficulties in telling them apart, they are, however, completely separate entities. I am the first to appreciate community work - the entire guild I happen to belong to is a strongly community oriented one - but GW is not an open source project. Therefore community work gives you zero credit in calling the shots with the actual game. It is a product, you vote with your dollar and hence DLDU.

A completely different thing is that in my opinion there is one issue that violates the original design far worse than anything else, and that is consumables. Compared to that everything else is peanuts but as long as PvE is not balanced around them I couldn't care less. All of PvE can be completed without PvE skills, consumables or the recently splitted PvE versions of common skills. You can still play GW the same way as when it first came out, nothing has been taken away.

Depending on ANet's vision V2.0 I may or may not support it, and either way it won't be a big deal. My point, when it comes to it, is that for some people here the direction of this game seems to mean terribly lot, and to me it looks pretty surreal, like watching two true fans argue over which hair spray Marge Simpson uses.

phan · Jun 09, 2008, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmithyBen

i want to add glitch finder Pablo to your list

Thank you...
He probably has benefitted from these glitches but he deserves it

I never got that guy ; waisting his life with finding glitches in a game Oo

aah well his choice ; ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

It shows it could have a lot of promise. GW1 had that for a while... Then factions came out.
edit:
Ensign
JR
Black Mischief
Avarre
Divine Ambassador
Racthoh
Sab
Tommy Rommo aka Tommy Equals Ftw
Arkantos
Savio

Theres 10 right there that have given more information and more learning expierence in this game than 99% of the game's community combined, and it only took about 2 minutes to come up with the list. (and no I wasn't even counting myself to be fair.)

Even though we all know these persons , they didn't came up with that knowlegde all by them selfs . Even they were using meteor shower on a warrior in the beginning . The knowledge of a game grew by multiple people helping each other . Some people [ like the list you named ] are better than most Guildwarsgamers but still ; their guides and comments grew out of other things . Like the common sabway named after Sab ofc ; grew out of other little builds made up by the casual gamer . They just enhanced the knowlegde they got and told it to other people , and that their way of helping the community but it's quite harsh to say that ONLY THEY did the 99% of the helping of the community . Guildwars is a game to play in teams ; knowlegde comes by working in teams .

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Don't underestimate the intellectual challenge. I'm a theoretical physicist by profession and I get to find glitches in the fabric of reality. That's pretty cool stuff

Pretty much all revolutionary scientific progress happens when something doesn't work as expected.

Your right ; i know i'm not a complete retard but i would never find the things he did ; me beeing uninterested in these things might be the cause of that ; but to find those things he found .. you must be quite dedicated.

One could say they don't get you, wasting your life on a game.

Quote:

Finding important glitches is important too dude! Anet can't catch anything because they aren't perfect and omnipotent. Which is why they listen to feedback (like say Izzy, who has talked to pretty much most of the people on Yichi's list at some point for skill balancing feedback).

Ghaha ; lets blame them now for bad balances =)

tmakinen · Jun 09, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

I never got that guy ; waisting his life with finding glitches in a game

Don't underestimate the intellectual challenge. I'm a theoretical physicist by profession and I get to find glitches in the fabric of reality. That's pretty cool stuff

Pretty much all revolutionary scientific progress happens when something doesn't work as expected.

DarkNecrid · Jun 09, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

I never got that guy ; waisting his life with finding glitches in a game Oo

aah well his choice ; ..

One could say they don't get you, wasting your life on a game.

Finding important glitches is important too dude! Anet can't catch anything because they aren't perfect and omnipotent. Which is why they listen to feedback (like say Izzy, who has talked to pretty much most of the people on Yichi's list at some point for skill balancing feedback).

Esan · Jun 09, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I'm a theoretical physicist by profession and ...

... I am wasting my life arguing an inconsequential point on a video game fansite forum.

Don't you have grant proposals to write? Stop slacking off.

Yichi · Jun 09, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

Even though we all know these persons , they didn't came up with that knowlegde all by them selfs . Even they were using meteor shower on a warrior in the beginning .

From personally knowing everyone of those people on that list, you're wrong on this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

The knowledge of a game grew by multiple people helping each other . Some people [ like the list you named ] are better than most Guildwarsgamers but still ; their guides and comments grew out of other things . Like the common sabway named after Sab ofc ; grew out of other little builds made up by the casual gamer.

Provide proof of these said "little" builds that these were evolved from and you would have had a point here, but you don't. Because the Builds, Guides, and Strategies these people have produced, as well as other knowledge that has been given has all come from personal expierence and testing themselves, not anyone else's testing. Their knowledge came from trial and error, and learning from their mistakes. A common thing most people can't seem to do which is why they go no where, even if it is only a game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

They just enhanced the knowlegde they got and told it to other people , and that their way of helping the community but it's quite harsh to say that ONLY THEY did the 99% of the helping of the community . Guildwars is a game to play in teams ; knowlegde comes by working in teams.

Ok granted the 99% is a little harsh. I'll drop it down to 85% but still, name me another group of people that has given more to the community as far as learning, information on helping new players and giving them the correct advice to get them started, strategy guides on general playstyle wether it be PvE or PvP, and general knowledgable information about the game and you'll have a leg to stand on in this discussion.

But since I guarentee you that you cannot, its kind of pointless to argue against.

Esan · Jun 09, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

Name me another group of people that has given more to the community as far as learning, information on helping new players and giving them the correct advice to get them started, strategy guides on general playstyle wether it be PvE or PvP, and general knowledgable information about the game

The contributors to the original GuildWiki, which intersects the above group of 10 GW rockstars not at all.

Nightmares Hammer · Jun 09, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

I never got that guy ; waisting his life with finding glitches

Huh...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

Like the common sabway named after Sab ofc ; grew out of other little builds made up by the casual gamer.

OK, this is just wrong.

tmakinen · Jun 09, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

... I am wasting my life arguing an inconsequential point on a video game fansite forum.

Don't you have grant proposals to write? Stop slacking off.

I understand that the above is written in jest but think about it ... we didn't have these kinds of things when I was a young'un and now that my kids have grown up and I have an entrenced position in my institute which means that I don't have to work 80 hours a week to stay in the threadmill (I still do on occasion when something interesting pops up) I suddenly have a decent amount of free time to use as I see fit, and call me perverted but discussion has always been the game I derive most pleasure from doing. And GW is good mindless fun as well (if you suggest that there's more than an almost imperceptible change of difficulty between running a bear and a 'real' build then I'd be happy to introduce you to some real mindbenders

).

Bryant Again · Jun 09, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

*snippet* I am the first to appreciate community work - the entire guild I happen to belong to is a strongly community oriented one - but GW is not an open source project. Therefore community work gives you zero credit in calling the shots with the actual game. It is a product, you vote with your dollar and hence DLDU.

Communities, especially for online games, are a central driving force in terms of game direction. A good example of this is WoW: Without the test realm and player input, large and often drastic changes of the game would drive through into the real and live version, and they're usually not perceived through open arms. If there was no protest regarding Life Tap, many Warlocks would be highly unhappy (not just a "waah i ain't op no more" but to a point that it voided warlock gear pointless). If raiders did not have a huge ass thread about T6 itemization, Stamina would've been absent from the high-end gear (which is vital for many classes). Regarding major community contributers, I believe every Warrior needs to hand Ciderhelm a major set of props, even going so far to own the domain of www.readthesticky.com.

To simply dismiss community work, be it from a major head or a voice altogether, is always going to lead into faulty waters. A large community is always the driving force of a game. It's just knowing who to listen to that can become difficult. But to simply ignore and dismiss *all* player feedback is a terrible decision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

A completely different thing is that in my opinion there is one issue that violates the original design far worse than anything else, and that is consumables. Compared to that everything else is peanuts but as long as PvE is not balanced around them I couldn't care less. All of PvE can be completed without PvE skills, consumables or the recently splitted PvE versions of common skills. You can still play GW the same way as when it first came out, nothing has been taken away.

When you're not using the best tools handed to you, you're purposely creating self-inflicted penalties, i.e. "gimping yourself", something that I and many others have penned numerous times. When I have to gimp myself to have a challenge, it means the game is no longer challenging. And rarely is self-imposed challenge enjoyed, easily shown by difficulty settings having survived for so many years.

New tools were added into the game, all of which make the game slightly to drastically easier. By not using these tools I am not being given a challenge but creating my own, and that sucks.

Ack, another interesting comment I totally missed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Knowing and/or caring more about a franchise than its producers is a hallmark of fanboyism gone overboard. It's just a game

Problem is, the "fanboys" should never be caring more about the game than the devs, because the developers should be loving it more than anyone else.

Snow Bunny · Jun 09, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

For all of you saying, "Don't like it, don't use it." Let me explain something, and you must understand it.

ArenaNet is a company. It is a business. People are trying to make money. How do you make money? Sales of a product. How do you sell a product? You design a product that people like. 'Don't like it?' K I WON'T BUY IT THEN.

When Broodwar for Starcraft first came out, Disruption Web on the Corsairs was insanely broken. It had the most indiscriminantly long duration, and with it, you could blanket entire bases/armies while your forces faceraped. Top players demanded a nerf or they'd quit. Blizzard took action accordingly.

ArenaNet is digging themselves into a hole here. At this point, I really do believe that their skill-balancing department has gone rogue, as has their Community Relations department. I have no clue what ANet thinks its doing, but I can tell you it's bad for business.